It's a real threat: Gustavo Petro talks about the possibility of US military action in Colombia and about his call
The Colombian president indicated that he also shared information with Trump about drug trafficking in his country; both plan to meet at the White House
Colombia was also recently threatened by US President Donald Trump, who said a military incursion into the South American country “Sounds good.”
Trump accused the South American nation of contributing to the drug trafficking that plagues his country, rhetoric that has also served him well in carrying out a large military deployment in the Caribbean, pushing for arrests and raids against irregular migrants on US soil, and, more recently, attacking Venezuela.
This latest action by his army culminated in the capture of President Nicolas Maduro and his wife, Congresswoman Cilia Flores, who are being held in a New York penitentiary and face charges of drug trafficking, among other accusations.
In recent days, Trump did not rule out carrying out a similar operation in Colombia and even said that Petro should “watch his ass.”
He also accused him of having cocaine labs, something the Colombian leader denied.
This Wednesday, however, the tone changed radically.
Both leaders, historical adversaries who in multiple They had previously expressed their disagreements publicly on social media, said they had a phone call, and agreed to meet in person. Trump stated that it had been an “honor” to speak with Petro and that Petro called him to explain “the drug-related situation and other disagreements.” Petro also described the communication as positive. The Colombian president discussed that call, the situation in Venezuela, and the tense relationship between the US and the rest of Latin America with our correspondent in South America, Ione Wells. We share the interview, which has been edited for clarity.
Did you and Trump resolve your differences when you spoke? Who called whom? Were there apologies?
The conversation was arranged by Senator Rand Paul, a Republican doctor from Kentucky whom I don't know personally, but who, through our diplomatic services and after taking an interest in the matter,managed to mediate.
He felt that any military action in Colombia would be inappropriate.
The call actually lasted 55 minutes, and I did most of it. I spoke about two topics: one was drug trafficking in Colombia and the falsity of the figures given to the US government; the second was Venezuela and our view of the tension between the US and Latin America.
Donald Trump, as he said in the tweet, liked our conversation, and we are going to meet in person, as we believe that is the right approach.
How would you describe Donald Trump?
I don't know him personally, so I can't.
But it seems to me there's a problem In the US, this has been going on for decades, it even seems to be over a century. I was reading about it in an academic study by two women, and it's about positioning itself in its international relations as if it were an empire, disregarding the rights of nations, especially in Latin America. [The study] includes a chart indicating that 33% of its violent interventions have been in Latin America. I said it in the conversation: as long as the US economy is based on oil and coal, 70% of its energy matrix, it will tend to seek wars over both resources. The issue in Venezuela is that. If US society were committed to the Paris Agreement, to replace that 70% with clean energy, there wouldn't be wars; there would be a much more democratic society in the world. The US president has said that military action in Colombia “sounds good.” How seriously do you take that?
Yes, I do believe it's a real threat, with the prospect that it could be withdrawn, but it depends on the subsequent talks. Colombia has experienced military violence from the US The last time was at the beginning of the 20th century. That's why Panama isn't part of Colombia today.
Colombia has lost territory many times, so let's not think that this is just empty talk, especially not from Trump.
President Trump has said that you should watch your back. How concerned are you about your personal safety? Have you reinforced your security detail?
Yes, but faced with a threat of the magnitude of such a powerful army, such powerful military forces, Colombia wouldn't respond exactly as they tried in Venezuela.
Our defenses aren't the barracks, they're the mountains, the jungles, And that's why there have been 75 years of violence in Colombia.
There are 700,000 deaths among ourselves, something related to the type of political leadership we've had, the same leadership that has overshadowed relations between Colombia and the United States, which have always been collaborative.
I never withdrew the collaboration that exists in the fight against drug trafficking.Colombian intelligence participates in 63% of seizure operations, and data from three years of my administration shows that we managed to seize 2,800 tons of drugs.
President Trump has received completely contrary data.
Are you sure that the US couldn't do to you what it did to Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela?
There was a great weakness in Nicolas Maduro, one, let's say, inherent to Venezuelan politics. There was a period of degradation in the process that Chavez initiated, which led Venezuelan society to withdraw its support for the government. I mediated between the Venezuelan government and former US President Joe Biden, and what I sought were free elections. This implied the lifting of the US embargo on Venezuela—because no nation can hold free elections under an embargo—and an end to Maduro's persecution of opposition groups on Venezuelan soil, as well as the Venezuelan side guaranteeing the elections. It was a two-way street, and I must say I was wrong, because what had been promised by both sides was not fulfilled. There was neither the lifting of the embargo on the elections nor an end to the persecution of the groups; all of that failed and ended in that stage where I did not recognize the elections held in Venezuela. What do I think? I just spoke with Delcy, whom I've known for a long time. There must be negotiations between Venezuelan forces that should lead to what happened in Colombia before the period of violence, which is having shared governments. Marco Rubio has used that same expression.
When will you receive Delcy Rodriguez in Colombia?
I invited her; I don't know if it will happen, but I think it would be important.
Do you know if the CIA had an informant within Nicolas Maduro's government? Can you be certain that no one in your government, including in this house, is sharing information with the US government?
Venezuela has long been interfered with by various intelligence agencies, not only American ones.
In our case, they were also given permission to be here about 50 years ago, but to combat drug trafficking.
How is Colombia preparing to defend itself? And how would you respond to a US attack?
I prefer that dialogue take place, as promised; work is underway on that.
I was with the M-19, the first insurgent guerrilla group. We called ourselves the Army of Bolivar. Our highest rank was Officer of Bolivar. Our first action was to recover Bolivar's sword, which I always said would remain unsheathed until there was justice in Colombia.
Now I have it on the first floor, and I mentioned that I would sleep next to Bolivar's sword and that my protection would primarily come from the people.Not because an unarmed people can withstand a Blackhawk helicopter, but because an unarmed people defeated the Spanish empire, which was the largest army, and they know what to do whenever they are threatened.
And it's not about facing the great army with weapons we don't have.
Because we don't even have anti-aircraft defenses; the fate of our weapons was different, but rather that of the multitudes, our mountains, and our jungles, as we have always done.
President Trump personally accused you of cocaine trafficking. What is your response to this?
Well, I think that's what the Colombian far right was telling the US government. But I publicly released my bank statements here. I only have one bank account.
In 2020, I was audited, and they never found anything anomalous. I only own my house, which I'm still paying off, because I built it with a mortgage and almost lost it once. That's all I have; I don't even own a car.
They probably searched the world to see if I had any properties held by front men, but they never found anything.
Cocaine production in Colombia reached record levels. Do you take responsibility?
I told Trump the figures. Where is the problem? I told him that under Ivan Duque's government, coca leaf cultivation doubled, and during my entire administration, cultivation only increased by 6%; under his administration, it increased by 100%. Why is that? We have been successful in halting the growth, but there are two policies: one has even helped to reduce cultivation, and the other hasn't; it has caused it to skyrocket.
The policy that caused coca leaf cultivation to skyrocket under Duque's government was fundamentally tearing up the peace and going from what had been agreed upon, which was the voluntary substitution of crops by farmers, to forcibly eradicating them.
The farmers reacted by planting more coca leaves.
You see decreases where there was a crop substitution policy; President Juan Manuel Santos initiated it, small-scale, but he did it, and they went down.
Should you have opted for a tougher military stance against drug trafficking instead of prioritizing dialogue?
That's all the narrative of the Colombian far right. The groups that are currently armed, except for the ELN, which has been around since 1964, As an insurgency now consumed by cocaine trafficking, they were created during Duque's administration. I received them with weapons and violence.
We have developed two tracks: one is to talk peace with groups that are bandits, no longer political groups, and to develop a military offensive against those who do not want peace.
There are still negotiations in the south of the country,where the substitution of coca leaf has been most extensive, and where the homicide rate in Colombia has decreased the most.
The policy of dialogue, as I have just demonstrated, serves to de-escalate violence, but we are not fools; we know with whom we are negotiating. This is no longer a political problem; it is a problem of greed.
And to that extent, we have carried out 1,440 combat operations, with the capture of 14,000 members of these types of structures. What happens is that they recover quickly because it's money.
We have carried out 12 bombings that I ordered within the framework of International Humanitarian Law.
Now, the end result is the seizure, which is my priority, not attacking the farmers, as Duque did. I need the farmers as allies of the State to truly eradicate the plantations. The seizures we have made are the largest in the history of the world for cocaine.
What do you expect from the US and what is your message to the American people?
I think they must reflect, first and foremost.
Latin America must also come together. Yesterday was a very special day, because, coincidentally, many people took to the streets in Venezuelan cities, a great many people in Colombian cities, at a time that is not usual, and there was a social explosion in some US cities over an unrelated event, which was the murder of a citizen by ICE, which for us operates the same way as the Nazi brigades and the Italian fascist brigades. It no longer just persecutes Latin Americans in the streets, which for us is an affront, but it kills citizens of the United States.
So this is a moment for reflection, because if you look at all of this together, plus what may continue to develop, well, instead of a United States dominating the world, its imperial dream, it is a United States isolated from the world.
And an empire was not built in isolation from the world; that's what happened to Rome. A United States that is relevant in the world is achieved through democratic dialogue and the construction of democratic rules.